Rob Coons On The Spot

For Episode 3 of Slovenly On The Spot, we sat down with photographer and lifelong punk Rob Coons to talk about the journey that brought him behind the lens.

Rob reflects on his early days discovering punk, how the scene shaped his perspective, and what first sparked his interest in photography. We get into the photographers and artists who inspired him, why documenting people and moments has become such an important part of his life, and how punk continues to influence the way he sees the world.

We also talk about looking ahead, his aspirations as a photographer, what continues to drive his creativity, and the importance of staying curious while documenting the communities you care about.

This episode is a conversation about finding your craft, preserving culture, and seeing the world through a different lens.

Transcript

SPEAKER_03 1:04

Creating an identity. Highlighting bands. We love to hope that you get to enjoy this. I definitely did. And yeah. Yeah, Rob, I'm ready to start, hey? I think we've already kind of started though.

SPEAKER_05 1:24

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, you know, it's nice to catch up.

SPEAKER_03 1:29

Yeah, definitely. It's really good to hear from you. You know, you know, Rob, when I first um heard you were coming to the festival, you know, I texted Pete. I was like, Pete, is this guy really gonna be there? And um, because I was like funny, like it's funny because I never really known your work, you know, but I could never put a name to it, you know, because um the punk rock museum guys follow us, and then like I have this other friend of mine who's in a band called Necklace, and he's he's a punk kid through and through, and he told me that you were coming as well. And it was such a pleasure getting to meet you and getting to and getting um getting you to take out photos and that kind of thing, you know. Really, really such a pleasure. And um, I heard that you you you you grew up in the 80s, you're an 80s punk rock kid in I think it was the Midwest, right? Yeah, uh Indiana. Indiana, okay. And like I've always loved um 80s punk and I've kind of glorified it in a way. I even have the black flag tattoo, and you can even hear it in the way we we make our music, you know. Um I'm curious to find out, like, what was it as dangerous as they said it was? Because there was so much propaganda, or not propaganda, there was just a lot of concerned parents mostly, you know, around that time, especially in the US, about uh punk and and whether or not it was safe for their kids to go out. And I don't know how old you were in the in uh in that time when you first started going to shows, but um, I'm just curious to find out because I always imagined myself being there in the 80s, you know, like and I told I told this to this one Afrikaans person, you know what, do you know what Afrikaans is?

SPEAKER_06 3:21

I I believe so, but if you could just kind of carry me along.

SPEAKER_03 3:25

So Afrikaans people uh were just um it's a demographic of of um South African people who speak uh a version of Dutch, you know. And they're known and they're known to be uh pretty racist. And when I told this guy, I was like, yeah, you know, I really want to time travel back to the 80s and go to a show, and he was like, dude, you would die then, you know. So I'm just curious to find out was it as dangerous as they say it was, like, especially at the shows and just the people that would be around on the I'm just I'm just really interested to find out what it was like in the 80s, you know.

SPEAKER_06 4:03

Sure. I can only I mean I I you know I've heard the stories, like everyone has, uh I'm sorry, but I can only really speak from my own experience. So uh I started going to shows kind of more in the late, late 80s. So I was definitely a child of the 80s, but uh I didn't start going to shows till like 86, 87. And I think in my own experience, uh my shows were in the Midwest, and my first shows were in a city called Cincinnati, and which was in Ohio, and it was kind of like the closest punk venue to me. And then I moved to Chicago for the last few years of the 80s and started seeing shows in Chicago. So, in general, in my own experience, uh the intense violence that we've all read about seemed to be more coastal specific. Like the games and the suicidals and all the craziness were more was more in uh the coastal areas. Like, you know, first of all, like once again, I can only speak from my own experience. I'm sure there was violence everywhere, and I definitely experienced some violence at the shows I attended, but nothing seemed extraordinary to me. Um but I've definitely talked to people who uh were living in, let's say, you know, LA or Bay Area.

unknown 5:36

Yeah. And so uh during that era, or maybe even into the earlier 80s, and uh I don't think every show was like that.

SPEAKER_03 5:46

Yeah, but there was always kind of this tension of well, who's gonna show up tonight and cause some problems. What kind of people would show up and cause problems?

SPEAKER_06 5:57

Um well, I mean, it was always the gang element in Los Angeles. But once again, I never really had an experience in that. You know, and all the shows that I've ever been to in what we'll call more modern times. I mean, I've been going to shows in LA on and off. I've never I've never lived there, but I've been going there to shows on and off for many, many years. I've never seen any uh any of that kind of legend, if you will, yeah, uh that that once existed. But um I think a lot of it times, I think in the Bay Area specifically, I think our big issue here was uh Nazis showing up at shows, especially in that era. Because you just never knew, like, you know, you're at a show and all of a sudden like 20 skinheads come rolling in and and uh you know start causing major issues. So um, but I've been very fortunate in my show rolling my whole life that I've never really had a situation at a show where I mean let's just I'll approach this comment with caution because I've definitely seen some bad characters at shows that cause a serious issue. But in general, like this kind of aura of um show violence, uh I haven't really experienced very much where like large groups of people will come in and kind of take over the show and just cause mayhem and and start beating on people and stuff like that.

SPEAKER_03 7:40

And do you think like yeah?

SPEAKER_06 7:43

Oh, go ahead.

SPEAKER_03 7:44

Sorry to interrupt.

SPEAKER_05 7:46

No, uh yeah, I was gonna finish with my thoughts.

SPEAKER_03 7:48

Oh, okay. And do you think like things have gotten a bit crazier nowadays in comparison to um what they were back then, like just in terms of the way people used to dance and besides like the kind of politics and the violence, but like just essentially just the like the fierceness of people being there. Because like I've I've been seeing, I remember I was watching I was at work the other day and I was watching um I think it was Silent Fury uh a couple years ago or last year, and Trash Talk was playing, and then I saw a pink mullet in the crowd, and I was like, oh my god, it's Rob.

unknown 8:27

Yeah, that was me.

SPEAKER_03 8:28

Yeah, and like it looked crazy, you know. So I'm I'm I'm so curious to find out, like, because even things like crowdkilling is uh like is is is so prominent in today's like um like culture in in hardcore and in punk, you know. So I'm I'm super curious to find out if that has always been a thing or if it's kind of a new thing, not not necessarily new, but um more prominent, you know. Like crowdkilling is literally a meme on Instagram now. You know, you get videos of dudes just slamming everyone and just like throwing fists and kicks and stuff. So I'm curious.

SPEAKER_06 9:06

Yeah, well, I mean, I will you're you're definitely onto something here. See, that's and I was kind of thinking that when I was describing how much how little general violence I've I've experienced in shows over the years.

unknown 9:20

But with that said, the show the dancing style today in modern times, at least I at least my experience here in the Bay Area is more violent than I've I've ever seen in my entire life. Uh that's the crazy thing.

SPEAKER_06 9:42

And here's the bizarre part of it is decades, for decades, you know, it's like I've been my experience in general is if someone is being overly violent uh at a show, they're dealt with. And I'm not saying they have to get beat up or anything, but someone will say something, or they have to kind of do the person or extract them from the crowd or get the throw them out, whatever, you know, but now the violence at shows is like accepted.

unknown 10:18

It's weird.

SPEAKER_06 10:20

It's one of the most bizarre things I've really it will baffle me till till forever is someone will like violently.

unknown 10:33

I mean, I'm not talking about oh sorry, I accidentally swung my arm and hit you.

SPEAKER_06 10:38

It's more like I purposely intended to punch you in the face. And then it's an acceptable form of violence. And a lot of people, I've I've seen it over and over, and it sounds like you've seen it funny, yeah, at least on videos, if not at the shows you're attending, where someone will take a punch and then they just kind of shrug it off, like, oh, it's just part of uh part of the culture, yeah. And here's the really interesting the interesting thing to me is if someone's being excessively violent now at a show. So once again, it's all within context. So we all like but in general, someone goes crazy, they punch somebody or kick somebody extremely hard and hurt them. And if that person that got hurt reacts back like most people would, uh the crowd will actually turn against the person uh retaliating and be like, hey, this is you know, if you can't take it, then go to the back.

SPEAKER_04 11:54

No, but that's ridiculous, though. I think that's ridiculous.

SPEAKER_03 11:58

Like there's there's levels, you know, like there's levels to like just having fun and then there's like deliberately punching someone in the face. But I guess it's it's it's I don't know, it's it's so different for me here in in in Johannesburg, you know, like we do a lot of push mushing and like and um people like to stage dive and stuff, and there will be the occasional asshole who will just start being like a bull and just going everywhere and like making people just uncomfortable. But there's always gonna be that, and it and it mostly happens at our shows, you know, where people just get a bit rowdy. But you always have to be the person who says, hey, chill, you know, like we're all having fun, but we can all have fun in a safe way, you know. I don't want people's teeth to be knocked out.

SPEAKER_06 12:53

Yeah, I think one of the more interesting things uh uh that I've seen over the last few years, which has really been interesting to me.

unknown 13:04

So I I gotta say, you know, this type of dancing has been around since the 90s.

SPEAKER_06 13:10

It's just it's taken to a new level, I think is the best way to say it. And in general, it only existed at kind of the heavier hardcore shows. But now, especially if there's younger, a younger audience there, uh, I see it in every genre of punk and hardcore.

unknown 13:33

So like you'll be uh I'll give you an example. Um there'll be like uh an extremely fast grandcore band.

SPEAKER_06 13:42

Like usually kids, or I use kids loosely, but people uh would not necessarily be like that level of violent dancing.

unknown 13:55

Okay.

SPEAKER_06 13:56

So what I'm finding now is a grandcore band will be playing, and the minute they slow down to like kind of more of a heavier hardcore beat, even if it's only for like 30 seconds, everyone it's this interesting shift in the crowd because that's people start swinging their arms and kicking each other in an extremely violent way. Sometimes, not every time. No, but you know, it typically you would for that genre of music, you would never see that style of dancing. But it's the minute the minute they go into that heavy breakdown that kind of parallels the hardcore music that most of the people are listening to around the Bay Area, yeah. It's like, oh, it's on.

unknown 14:42

Like attack each other.

SPEAKER_04 14:44

Um so that's been really interesting to me.

SPEAKER_06 14:48

Uh it's no longer just a certain style of music.

SPEAKER_03 14:52

It's it's kind of divolves into everything.

SPEAKER_06 14:56

Uh into everything. Um and it's age-based. Uh not to not to be ageist, but it really is uh age-based, I find. If you go to a show with uh a crowd that is, you know, uh an older crowd, it's almost non-existent.

unknown 15:15

Um but uh definitely a younger person's uh game, if you will.

SPEAKER_06 15:21

I I definitely see it at younger, younger audiences.

SPEAKER_03 15:24

No, I agree. I mean you have to be very athletic. I mean the hardcore part is a very athletic kind of genre. Like you it's really like I've seen the craziest things, you know. And uh the the Bali's won't be able to do that kind of stuff, you know.

SPEAKER_06 15:43

Well that that's a true too. Yeah, I also think it's also a weird, not a weird, but it just it's just a different mentality. People that's what younger the younger generation is growing up with, that's what they know, uh that's what they're reacting to.

unknown 15:58

Whereas people that are older they didn't grow up with heart like dancing like that.

SPEAKER_06 16:04

And then when that happens, they're like, wait, what what are you doing? Like I don't want to get hit.

SPEAKER_04 16:10

You're hurting him, stop.

SPEAKER_06 16:12

Yeah. So I've been uh when I photograph, yeah, I tend to if it gets crazy like that, I'm out.

unknown 16:23

Like partly because I don't want to get hit. Like, I mean I get hit all the time, but it's a different type of hit. I think you understand the difference.

SPEAKER_06 16:32

Um, you know, I get jumped on and hit and pushed all the time uh being up front at shows, but when it goes to the next level and and it starts getting successfully violent, I'm I'm out. Like I don't want to get hit in that context, and I definitely don't want my camera gear broken.

SPEAKER_02 16:52

Yeah, of course.

SPEAKER_06 16:55

So sometimes I either I get away from the crowd, or if it's it's you know okay. I like I kind of read the environment. Sometimes I might try to get up on the corner of the stage out of the blast zone.

unknown 17:11

Um it depends on the menu and the band and everything. But um, yeah, I just it's it's really not my thing.

SPEAKER_06 17:21

And what's the but I oh I was just gonna say I've never really one thing to add is even though I've been even before I started taking photos my entire life, pretty much since the very first show I went to as a kid, uh I've been in front of the band. I I am the person that I have to stand in front of the band almost at every show because that's uh it's uh you know, you you get it. It's it's uh not only sounds great to your ears, but it's emotionally moving. Uh that's that's uh for me. That's why I I go to shows, is not only do I enjoy it, it sounds great to me. I like the environment, it's what uh who I am, but it moves me.

unknown 18:06

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 18:07

In order to be uh moved, I I've always stood right in front of the band because I want to feel that motion, emotion. Uh so uh kind of my my point is is with or without the camera, I've been uh always been in front of the band. Uh and uh so I don't really know if I had a point per se, but I just wanted to say it's just kind of like it's where I get feel the show. Yeah. So um I'm finding I'm in that area less and less because the shows are so aggressive now.

SPEAKER_03 18:49

No, but it's beautiful what you just said, Rob, like being in front of the band when they're performing. Like that's something I've always kind of loved to do as well since I started going to shows. Like I've I've I've been going to shows for the same amount of time I've been in the band, which is about three years. So I've only been I've only I've only been doing punk as a whole for like six years, you know. And when I went to like my first handful of shows, I would go to the front because I was just so in awe of what was going on and what was going in front of me. Like my first show was a death metal show. It was the craziest thing. Like I had there were these dudes in corpse makeup and um just playing this really dark, scary kind of music, you know, and I was I wanna I I thought I was gonna hear punk, you know, and then I see these dudes come on stage with like spikes on their jackets and skulls and and who look dead, you know, but it was just it was just such a moving and heartwarming feeling, you know, so much so that I even decided to start this band, you know. Like I saw those guys and I was like, wow, like I can do that too, you know. And it was also like it was this band called Demo Garath, Satanam. Um, they were the first all black black metal band in Africa, you know. And um super cool stuff as well. I mean, I'll I'll I'll I'll I'll see if they have stuff outstormed and maybe I can send it to you. Um yeah, and what do you do? So when when when when when you're like in a crowd like that, what what's the worst show you've seen? Like what's the worst thing that's happened? Like I'm curious to to find out like the uh horror story of this. Because you've been to a lot of shows. You've been to a lot of shows.

SPEAKER_06 20:47

Like when you say worse, like someone being injured or to me or something.

SPEAKER_03 20:52

Yeah, just like what like just generally like what what was the most unpleasant thing you've seen at a show? Not like like in terms of like just the like in the in terms of the theatrics, you know, like of how people dance and that kind of thing. Like who was playing, what did this kid do? How far did he fly? That kind of thing.

SPEAKER_06 21:17

Uh geez, there um worst thing.

SPEAKER_04 21:24

Well, maybe craziest thing, let me say that.

SPEAKER_06 21:28

I will uh um at your discretion. I mean, I have a million stories, but I don't know if it would call it the worst thing, but I will say one of the craziest things I ever saw was uh I'm thinking of it because you brought up the the death metal black metal uh genres. Um back in the 90s, uh I'm sure you're familiar with the band Mayhem, the famous uh black metal band on Scanland.

unknown 22:01

Area.

SPEAKER_06 22:02

So mayhem it was right when black metal was starting to blow up, and the fans were uh starting some of their first tours of the US. So mayhem played in this tiny club here in San Francisco called the Covered Wagon, which no longer exists. And uh Covered Wagon, I would say there were probably excuse me, no more than like 100, 150 people there. And um we were all so excited to see the the legendary mayhem. And so I you know, it's this tiny stage, it's like a stage like maybe you know a foot high, if that. And so they're pretty much at eye level with the crowd. So me and my friend, we get there super early, and uh, you know, because I wanted I didn't know what to expect.

unknown 22:59

And so we're standing right in front of the band. Uh I should say the equipment. The band wasn't out yet.

SPEAKER_06 23:06

So we've been standing there for quite some time waiting for them to play. And so they're still uh setting up the equipment, and then this guy walks out onto the stage with this garbage bag, this huge garbage bag uh full of something. And we're like, oh wow, what's that? And so he opens the garbage bag and it's a cow's head, like a real cow's head, like Natty's head, not like a little calf, but like full-size cow's head, and all the all the skin, the fur was gone. So it was just the like the grisly flesh, the muscle and tendons and everything. And uh there was uh he pulled out a uh drum, you know, like uh like where the symbols go uh on a in a drum set. No symbol, it just had the kind of screw thing sticking up, and he jammed the cow head on top of that, literally like six inches away from us. And so I'm not I'm not an easily grossed out person, and that I was like, you know, wow, whatever. Uh I thought it was kind of crazy, but I was like, I didn't really care, but I didn't really need to, I didn't want it touching me.

unknown 24:27

Oh my god.

SPEAKER_06 24:29

So we have this huge uh cow's head on a on a like like a symbol stand in front of us, so we kind of shifted over a little bit, and then uh eventually the band came out and they're wearing black metal makeup, like the whole the whole thing, and they were incredible, they're absolutely incredible. But as you can probably imagine on this tiny stage in this tiny club, within one song, the cow's head that's rotting gets knocked over.

unknown 25:01

Now the cow's head is rolling around.

SPEAKER_04 25:05

Oh my god.

unknown 25:07

Like it, you know, people are it's in the pit, the cow's head is rolling around in the pit, and uh this is still will always be one of the craziest things. I mean, it's a dark, tiny club.

SPEAKER_06 25:20

I mean, you you know the you know the feel.

SPEAKER_03 25:23

Oh my god.

unknown 25:25

Somebody somebody picked up the cow's head like and threw it uh like uh across the pit and it hit I I I'll never forget this. They hit this guy in the head. The cow's head hit another guy in the head, it knocked him out. Oh shit.

SPEAKER_06 25:45

It like uh he he just flattened out on the floor in the middle of the pit, and um he was down for a while, but they never stopped.

SPEAKER_02 25:54

The band just kept they just kept going, fucking mayhem. Sounds like mayhem.

SPEAKER_06 26:02

People are kicking a cow's head around, uh, and the guy is like unconscious in the pit.

unknown 26:08

You know, people, a couple people are like, you know, oh damn, we gotta deal with this.

SPEAKER_03 26:13

That is the funniest story I've ever heard.

unknown 26:16

They just they get him moving, and he gets back up and he's good to go. He stayed in the pit.

SPEAKER_06 26:26

But um, yeah, that was one of the crazier uh show things.

SPEAKER_03 26:31

And were you were you record were you already like taking photos at this point? Or how did that start? Like I like I remember like like I I like just to bring it back to to like my experience, like um, you know, I I when we met, I told you I took photo I take photos and I've sent you some of the stuff I'm doing. I'm having my first exhibition actually. Thank you. Yeah, I think it's a group show. Um, but I remember like my journey into photography, like it started out just as me um being a kid. I think my so my dad's a journalist, and um he had this DSLR Canon um 500, I think, D500, C5, whatever. And um and I had this, and I had all these friends who were rappers and musicians, and this was when I was still a bit in my shell. So I just I just had this camera, and they were like, hey, I'd be like, you have a camera, take videos of us, take photos of us, and you know, and we just had fun. I had fun doing it. I would just go to the city a lot, and like in Johannesburg, the city is not a place people would normally go to, like it's it's very it's labeled as very dangerous, you know. But it depends on who on who you are and where you go, obviously. Um and that's kind of how I just got into the whole photography thing. So I'm really curious to find out how that started for you. Like, when did you pick up a camera? Why did you pick up a camera? Like I yeah.

SPEAKER_06 28:09

Um, so to answer your question, no, uh, I was not I did not have a camera uh during the Mayhem show. I I know there are pictures that exist of the show. I've seen them. They're not very good pictures, they are kind of taken a little further back, but you know, you can see their faces and like you should say you should send me the link to those.

SPEAKER_03 28:33

I'd love to, because usually what I do with this is I make like um I make like a nice little promo clip to advertise as a little podcast thing. So I'm so whatever.

SPEAKER_06 28:43

I have to find them. I I don't even it's not something like I save the link.

SPEAKER_03 28:48

Oh, I see.

unknown 28:50

I'll make a note though. Okay. I will warn you they're not that I don't remember being particularly great photos.

SPEAKER_06 28:59

So if I can find them, um I'll send them over, but it may not be kind of the excitement you're hoping for, uh given the context.

SPEAKER_03 29:08

Yeah, I think I think I just need to I need to have this idea in my head, and if there's a picture of it, then it's just gonna get ruined. Okay, cool, fair.

SPEAKER_06 29:16

Um but uh wait so uh camera. Uh yeah, I never never I I always just went to shows. I never even thought about taking a camera to the show. And then let's see, I gotta think about this. I think this is I'm I as this year, uh I think around October will be my full 10 years of taking show photos. So about 10 years ago, I I'm really into the outdoors and like nature and hiking and everything. And so uh decided about 10 years ago I was gonna buy a nice uh camera to and I had no thought whatsoever about taking show photos. I was like, I'm gonna buy a camera and a nice lens, and then I'll start taking it out on my hikes and seeing if I can photograph you know nature, like whatever that means. So maybe I'll see a bobcat or whatever. So I bought a I bought a nice camera and I had it for a little bit, and then I was like, maybe I'll try to take it to a show. So I took it to a show, and I I'll it's you know, I irony, it's you know, irony of it now is like I was terrified of having a camera at a show. I uh I didn't want it to be in anyone's way, even though it's funny because I'm that's the thing, is I was trying to allude to it later, is my whole life, regardless of whether I've had a camera or not in my hand, I've been standing in the same area in front of a band since the very first show I went to. But something about being in front of a band now with a camera was really freaky and weird to me. Uh, I felt like I was invasive. It was a weird feeling. And uh there was no flash. I didn't use a flash because I I was very uncomfortable with that at that time. So I took a couple photos of this band. Let's see, the band was a band, I think it was a wizard rifle, I think was the band. And I got a couple really great shots, like action shots of the drummer. Uh and uh when I went home and I edited it, and I was like, oh, those came out kind of cool. And then I was happy. Like I was like, oh, cool. I got like two or three cool shots of the drummer. Um so moving forward from that, I didn't go to every show with my camera, but I was like, oh, okay, that was a little freaky and scary, but uh let me try it again. So I slowly started taking camera to shows, even though that wasn't really my intention of why I bought the camera. And then that was the thing, is I would come home and look at my, you know, I had no idea what I was doing. I didn't have a, you know, I never shot manual. Uh I didn't have any uh classes or experience. I just kind of went for it. And um, but I would come home and look at my photos and go, oh hey, that I got one good shot. That's kind of cool. And it was fun to read back and think about, oh, that moment was neat, or like when that guy did this or that, whatever. And then it just it kind of just kept going. And so I went to I took my camera on and off to shows for about a year, still absolutely terrified using Flash. And then I started talking, I talked to a couple people who were in bands and stuff, and I was like, Well, how do you feel about Flash? Like, because obviously other people were using Flash at shows. Yeah, and everyone I talked to was like, I don't know, I don't care. Like, or um, I don't see it because you know you've got flashing stage lights on bands sometimes, depending on the club. Uh so I was getting kind of it's uh like it was not necessarily directed at me, these were more general questions, but I felt like it was kind of like a green light. I was like, okay, I'm gonna try a flash at a show. So but it took about a year of taking photos, and then I tried a flash at a show, and it was like literally and figuratively, it was a night and day difference of how much better uh the quality of the photo was because as you're I'm sure it's the same there with these small clubs that bands are playing in, have the absolute crappiest lighting you could possibly imagine. And then I you know the thing that I uh I find over and over again is even when clubs have good lighting, when heavier bands are playing, they like to really turn the lighting down. I think they're trying to build some tone or aesthetic to the right music, which drives me crazy because honestly, if I wasn't taking pictures, uh I would still I still like a band more well lit. I actually want to see them before. Yeah, I want to see their face, you know, and then a lot of the clubs they'll do extremely dark lighting and they'll have some sort of smoke machine or something.

SPEAKER_02 34:38

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 34:39

And then uh it just drives me crazy. But anyway, uh I started using a flash after about a year. Uh and then, you know, it's kind of just gone from there. Uh and now it's rare when I go to a show without a camera. Yeah. The funny thing is, when I show up at a show without a camera, uh people are always like, why don't you have your camera?

SPEAKER_04 35:06

It's become an extension. It's like you're it's like you'll throw it off. Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 35:11

You know, it's just like uh there's a variety of reasons, maybe, uh, but um why sometimes I don't have a camera to show. But sometimes now it's just it's I don't I one thing I want to mention about my style of photography is when I'm photographing a show, uh of course there's a little corner of my brain that's always thinking, okay, I gotta have my camera here, and I want to get the shot, and it needs to be at this angle. You know, all the technical aspects of photographing uh uh is a very fluid constant thing in my brain. But I'm I I'm not standing in front of a band because I don't like them. You know what I mean? Like I think the priority for me always is, and it's a thing I tell when people are like asking me for advice about uh uh photographing bands, I was like, don't forget the the most important reason you're standing there in front of the band is because you want to enjoy the music and you know get into the band. And that you know, that that's kind of the first priority. I said I feel like if then the camera thing is secondary. So um, you know, so I think my point what I was trying to get to earlier is you know, I have a small part of my brain that's always like um the technical aspects, but at the end of the day, I'm watching this band, I'm into them, I'm fist pumping, you know, toggling around, doing whatever.

unknown 36:53

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 36:54

Um and then the camera just is this kind of extension of those feelings.

SPEAKER_03 37:01

It's it's so it's somewhat a way of like a homage or appreciation, and you know, sure, sure.

SPEAKER_06 37:08

And honestly, for me personally, it's not like I uh uh you know how do I phrase this? I think the thing and everyone has a different way of taking pictures or whatever, like it's not a critique of how other people do it. But I've often thought as a performer, if because especially at some of the shows here in the Bay Area, there'll be like the whole front section of the audience will be people with cameras.

SPEAKER_05 37:38

Yeah.

unknown 37:39

Which always is kind of weird to me. It's like if I'm a performer and I'm just uh you know, it's like paparazzi.

SPEAKER_03 37:46

Yeah, you end up just performing to cameras, basically, you know.

SPEAKER_06 37:50

Yeah, and uh I always feel like and I I don't want to say like this is the forced act for me, but I'm up there rocking out, you know.

unknown 38:02

I want that band to know that how much their music means to me first.

SPEAKER_02 38:08

And then I I I'm almost, you know, the I have a camera, but that's not even timed while you're there.

unknown 38:16

You you guys rip.

SPEAKER_06 38:18

I'm so into you. Oh, look, I took your photos.

SPEAKER_04 38:21

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_06 38:23

Um so many photographers, they're so focused on their camera. I think they start to lose the feeling or the or the context of of why why are you standing in front of this band to begin with?

SPEAKER_03 38:41

Yeah, it's not all about getting photos.

SPEAKER_06 38:44

I don't know. This is my very personal feeling.

SPEAKER_03 38:46

No, Rob, I completely agree. You know, like there's there's like back at home, like we have like a lot of photographers too, you know. Not many of them do a lot of band photography though. Like in Johannesburg in Johannesburg, it's still very niche as well, you know, just the culture, like you kind of just see your friends at the same show all the time, you know, which is fun and all good, but then like you'll get the random kind of um really good photographers like the dudes who are exhibiting and you know find the galleries and that kind of thing, and you'll come into the scene, you know, and like and it'll be more so like it'll be like a exploit like an exploitation kind of thing instead of trying to pay homage or document, and essentially it's just kind of it's it's disrespectful, you know, and it's and it's a matter of like just not respecting the art, you know, like they're very good at what they do, but they don't respect the kind of um they don't respect what they're doing and the kind of power that they hold with their camera, you know, like it's like how you said it all boils down to what you care about and why you're standing there, you know, and sometimes a lot of these people get get the two um mixed up, you know, like are you documenting or are you exploiting, you know, and and it sucks, you know, especially when there's a scene that is really helping people out and are important to the community, you know. And I just wanted to like I already kind of got your opinion on the on the whole thing, kind of that was my that was my next talking point. Um just like how you feel about the whole document. Because your your style of photography isn't isn't necessarily like documenting, you know, it's more so it's I think your work is very fun, you know, and I think that's what the appeal of it is, you know, it's it's real and it's raw and it's unapologetic, you know. Did was that something you kind of just developed over time, or were you taking photos like that all the time?

SPEAKER_06 40:56

Well um the one so first I I kind of wanted to comment on uh you know, it's interesting to me because I've never really thought of my photography as documenting. I mean, at the most rudimentary level, yes, it's documenting uh a time and a place. But you know, I just I never really thought of things in that context. Uh I'm more in the it's just the I my brain is very live in the moment now.

SPEAKER_03 41:34

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 41:35

I'm I'm just like, oh, that was cool. Oh, I got it. I got it on, I got a picture of it. That was cool. And then I go back and uh have this moment to look at, and then I can share it, and I know that means it's documenting it. I don't know how to describe it, it's just different in my brain.

SPEAKER_03 41:52

Like that's not your intention for it.

SPEAKER_06 41:55

And so when I I just it's the excitement of the moment, and I just go, look, look at this cool thing I got to see here. Check this out. Yeah, um, and honestly, part of it is I'm I'm kind of like uh uh in a hype a hype machine. I truly love and believe in in punk and the beauty uh that it brings to the world. And I want to share it with everyone and especially share the love of my bands that I really like. Not my bands, but of the of the bands that I really love. And that has been a kind of a lifelong thing. You know, I've I worked at Maximum Rock and Roll for 30 years. I was a reviewer, I worked in the radio show, I had a column, I work in record stores, I've worked for other zines and radio shows. And the point of me bringing all that up is it's truly just to share my love of music. And there's nothing I enjoy more than someone seeing a photo of mine, or I don't do radio shows anymore, but I did them for many, many years. Or someone saying, Hey, you played this song on the radio, and saying, I checked out this band because of your photo or your review or this or that.

SPEAKER_05 43:15

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 43:15

And that is to me, it's no longer about me. It's not feeding my ego whatsoever. It's a fact that I somehow got someone to listen to this band that I love, and now they're they're loving what I love. And so kind of sharing the excitement and the hype that I have. So that's a lot of why I think I take photos and share so much. You know, I post this rad photo, and uh at the end of the day, all I want is someone to click that band's lit account and go check out that band.

SPEAKER_05 43:51

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 43:51

And use it, like download the music or buy their records or whatever. That's the most exciting thing to me. So beautiful. Am I documenting it?

unknown 44:00

My documentary.

SPEAKER_06 44:01

Yeah. But really well down to I just want to share this amazing moment and band with you, and I hope uh maybe you'll give them a listen too. Um but to kind of jump back a little further, you know, it's always the other part of my photography is uh you know, I can't really give any sort of interview or anything without mentioning my number one influence, which of course was Murray Bowles, who was a legendary photographer in the Bay Area throughout the early uh 80s, all the way up until you know he passed away a couple years ago. He was documenting, there you go with the document word, but uh you know, I think he was just out taking pictures of of amazing bands and just you know sharing them, uh, his love of music with people. But the point of me bringing his name up is some of the very first and earliest pun photos that I saw growing up back in the 80s was uh he put out a zine through Maximum Rock and Roll called If Life's a Bowl of Cherries, what am I doing in the pit? Uh and so I will send you there's uh actually a really wonderfully scanned PDF of that zine on the internet, and I'll send it over to you. Okay, thanks. Um I think it'll give you some great context to what I'm about to say. So that those images in that zine, even though that it was decades before I ever picked up my own camera, really changed things for me, seeing the energy that he captured. Because it's one thing to read a review or hear a story, but to give it some weight and depth to see these photos of these bands that you've only heard on record. You know, obviously this is well before the internet, so everything what there was no immediacy to that kind of stuff, was really kind of earth-shattering for me because he was not only documenting these incredible bands, but to this day is some of the best photo band photos I've ever seen because he did really tight crops, yeah, super energetic, uh, really capturing, you know, the stage dives and the slam dancing and the jumps and the the rage and emotion that uh we're all connecting with at these shows, you know. And so fast forward, you know, and then you know, I grew up seeing his photos, and then of course many other photos of like Ed Culver and Treatment.

SPEAKER_03 46:48

I love Alison LeBron, she's one of my favorites.

SPEAKER_06 46:51

Oh, amazing, amazing. Um, but really Murray Bowles was the root, if you will. So fast forward, um when uh I started taking photos, and you know, I I of course I said earlier, I had no idea what I was doing. I got the software. Yeah and uh immediately uh you know everything I shoot is in color. Uh and so immediately when I uploaded that first, very first uh group of photos that I took of that band Wizard Rifle, I was telling you about earlier, I flipped them all to black and white. Because I grew up looking at black and white punt photos.

unknown 47:34

That's the way my brain worked.

SPEAKER_06 47:35

I was like, oh, the leaves have to be black and white. Um so and then uh you know, I did the tight crops on the drummer, tried to bring up energy, so on and so forth. And I it was a it was a long time before I really suddenly had this bizarre revelation, which wasn't so bizarre at all, that I uh was 100% emulating Murray.

SPEAKER_04 48:00

Yeah, you know, that's how it always goes though. Hey, like we always we always want to just emulate the people who we look up to, you know.

SPEAKER_06 48:10

Sure. So that was kind of a really cool thing. I was like, I just kind of it was like I just kind of looked at my photos one day. I was like, holy, holy shit, all the things I do look exactly like the type of photo photos that Murray was doing.

SPEAKER_04 48:25

I was checking out because I've never heard of him, man.

SPEAKER_06 48:28

Yeah, he's uh I I don't really know how far I I think I want to believe that he's bigger than he probably is, you know, in the in the alore of of punk photography.

unknown 48:42

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 48:43

But he's if you just a fun side note, if you look at the cover of Green Day's uh Dookie record, there's that's that kind of cartoony graphic. He's he's on the cover. It's a cartoon drawing of him, and there's like if you look, there's a camera guy on the cover, and uh he's got a little beard, he's got his glasses on, and uh he's holding his arm up above his head.

SPEAKER_03 49:12

Oh, okay. I'm looking at the cover now. I see it, I see it. With the blue t-shirt, looking the camera up and the glasses. Yes, I see it. Oh, so that's Murray Bowles.

SPEAKER_06 49:24

That's that's Murray. You know, so Green Day being an East Bay punk rock band who had been photographed a million times at Gilman by Murray. Um when they were designing that cover.

SPEAKER_01 49:40

Uh I mean, I don't know the whole story, I don't know those guys personally, but uh he ended up like we gotta get Murray on that cover.

unknown 49:50

Um so yeah, um but yeah, anyway, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 49:55

I'm looking at Murray's work now. It's it's it's really incredible, hey. Sheesh, when are we getting the Rob Kuhn's photography book?

SPEAKER_06 50:04

I uh so many people have asked uh when that's happening.

unknown 50:11

Um it's tricky for me. I personally I I'm very uh forward thinking in my photography. So what I mean by that is it I mean I look back and we'll re-edit photos and stuff, but 90% of my brain is like, what's next? What's next? What's next?

SPEAKER_06 50:34

Um, so it's really hard for me to wrap my brain around going, okay, what has been done?

SPEAKER_03 50:43

I can't.

SPEAKER_06 50:43

I'm always like, what's next? Yeah. So when people go, oh, you should do a book, I'm like, yeah, but I got like six nights of shows coming up.

SPEAKER_01 50:53

I don't have time to think about a book.

unknown 50:56

Yeah. Um but uh people I've you know I have so cool.

SPEAKER_06 51:04

I've been very fortunate that a lot of people uh hel offer to help put books together and stuff, but I'm just I'm not there yet.

SPEAKER_03 51:12

Yeah, no, that's fair. Like it's it's a thing you kind of have to really want, you know, and when you want something, you want it at that moment and in that time. So it's it's it's all about timing, I'd say, you know, timing is definitely a real thing that influences the decisions we make and how we move forward with things, you know. Um but I wanted to circle back regarding um like your inspiration and talking about these old school uh punk photographers. Um I know you're friends with the people at the punk rock museum in in Las Vegas, um and you have some work up there. Um how how do you feel about the fact that like your work is getting um um displayed in that kind of sense, you know? Because like you know, um my partner, she's into art, you know, and I remember we she would take me to all these art galleries, and here I am, this angsty 20-something-year-old, like, oh, these guys all have their noses up in the air, and it's art, art, art, whatever, you know. And it's like, how how does it feel having like that kind of connotation between like the kind of work you do and what it represents being you know made into something people can just view like that? And are you selling it, or is it just kind of like just there for people to view and stuff?

SPEAKER_06 52:37

Well, it for just for the museum itself, uh uh nothing was nothing's being sold. Oh, nothing's being sold. No.

unknown 52:44

I mean, no, no.

SPEAKER_06 52:46

For my art, most of our buy.

unknown 52:48

Okay.

SPEAKER_03 52:48

Yeah, they you know, they have a gift store with books and oh of course, yes. Oh, but the actual memorabilia kind of stuff is not getting sold.

SPEAKER_06 52:56

Yeah. Uh you know, Alison Braun has uh her book there.

unknown 53:00

Uh, you know, so you know, that's all that's all approved and licensed and I see.

SPEAKER_06 53:06

Uh it doesn't it doesn't feel it's uh I know there are a lot of uh to kind of jump back to your question, yeah. So I'm not I'm not selling anything there. Uh those are just the photos uh that I have in the museum are actually it's kind of like a I don't know how they did it, it's like almost like a screened wallpaper or something on the wall.

SPEAKER_03 53:30

It's kind of like a frame, a framed photo, and it's actually a oh it's kind of like a display kind of thing, like that goes with the building almost.

SPEAKER_06 53:41

Yeah, so there's four like there's more there's different rooms uh in the on the second floor of the museum, like like smaller like gallery rooms, and there's these kind of end caps that face out to the middle of the room, and so four the four end caps are my four photos. And so and they're uh ten and a half feet tall, the size of the phone.

SPEAKER_04 54:07

That's amazing, Rob. That's huge.

SPEAKER_06 54:09

Yeah. Uh and like three, maybe like three and a half feet across. Yeah. So um, how do I feel about my work being on display at a museum?

SPEAKER_05 54:22

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 54:24

You know, uh this is kind of how I how I feel about it. Um just as a side note, uh, I did just I just messaged you uh the link to the PDF of Murray Bowles.

unknown 54:42

So feel free to give that a look. Whatever. Yeah, yeah, I send it through uh your insta social media.

SPEAKER_06 54:49

Thank you. So that yeah, yeah, enjoy that. I think you'll enjoy it. And there's a the photo, uh uh not to give a big reveal away, but there's a photo in the of uh of a stage driver flying like over the air, in the air over uh GVH. You can see Colin from G VH, very small, like down in the corner of the photo.

unknown 55:12

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 55:13

Uh there's a stage driver flying over the top of um the crowd. And uh I it's a Murray photo, and uh to this day, it's my favorite punk photo I've ever seen in my life. It was my favorite photo when I saw it decades ago when I first got that Z back in the 80s. Yeah, I was like, this is inhuman. And here we are many, many years later, and I still every time I look at that photo, I'm like, that's the best punk photo that will ever be taken. Nothing will ever come close to that. When you see it, I will as well.

SPEAKER_03 55:50

I should also send you this um photo series by this photographer called Karabo Muki. He's a South African photographer, and he's more of like a documentarian kind of thing, you know? And he followed uh my guitarist's old band, uh, Tula's band. Uh there was a band called uh The Come in Your Face. It was the first all black punk rock band in Soweto and from Soweto and in South Africa, like ever, you know. So they were real pioneers. And they used to have this place called the Dog Pound where people would just kind of hang out, where they would just skate and just party. It's a beautifully taken photo series, Rob. I think you love it. Um, I'll send you the link for that as well.

SPEAKER_05 56:34

I would love that.

SPEAKER_03 56:35

Yeah, and you'll see Tula when he was young, and it was crazy.

SPEAKER_06 56:41

Oh, that's so cool.

SPEAKER_03 56:42

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 56:43

Um I got a little sidetracked there, but I did want to kind of jump on that and share that with you.

SPEAKER_06 56:50

But uh to kind of go back to your original question, um, here's what here's my take. We could debate the punk rock museum, and there's a lot of people that are very anti uh you know putting punk in a museum and blah blah blah, whatever.

unknown 57:04

I'm not I'm not gonna go down that path. What I do want to tell you is my general takeaway in the punk museum is it's never felt exploited to me. Yeah, um you know, I don't uh I I you know we can debate people like Fat Mike and stuff. I I don't care.

SPEAKER_06 57:26

I'm not getting into that. Um, I really feel like I've met a lot of people that work at the museum. I knew uh a couple people that were that were working there already, and my general takeaway is these people are very passionate about punk and about music, and they want to share it with the public. And the best way to do that was to try to put together these incredible collections of materials and share not only uh you know these amazing uh artifacts that uh have been collected over the years, but uh try to give some context to the history and meaning of punk. Uh that's a very rudimentary way of uh kind of uh summarizing how I feel about the museum. Okay I'm not saying that the museum doesn't go without faults, and there are things that they can improve, but every person on the planet has faults and things we can improve. It's just uh it's just life. We can sit by and we can't hate it, or we can you know try to find beauty and quality and things and go, hey, you know what? Actually, this is actually kind of a cool thing that's happening.

SPEAKER_05 58:51

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 58:51

So that's my general takeaway. I would have never like allowed my photos in there if I thought they were being exploited.

SPEAKER_02 59:01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 59:01

Or uh, you know, all my communications with them uh before I ever agreed to the photos were very straightforward about okay, great. Yeah, I think it's a lot of people.

SPEAKER_03 59:10

No, I I can guarantee I'm sure they're really good people, you know. Like they even reached out to us, you know, asking us about um what it's like in the punk scene in South Africa and just just generally about punk in Africa, you know, and that didn't come from a a malicious kind of thing. It was just someone wanting to know about something they're interested in in a different place, you know. And I think it's it's really cool that they are even reaching out to people like us, you know, because it shows that they care. You know, I still really want to do something with them, you know. Like I've been deliberately collecting all these posters for the past from the for the past from the past like six years of the shows I've been going to. Just with the hopes that one day it'll go in the museum, like a poster I made years ago, you know. Yeah. And just that was documentation of like this error that happened, you know. But uh we'll see what happens. I'm just having fun.

SPEAKER_06 1:00:13

Yeah, yeah. Um, you know, and honestly, to kind of speak a bigger picture, uh, you know, I don't want to get too in get in depth here, but like I I'm extremely protective of my art and my community. Um I'm not so protective. I mean, obviously, I want to protect my art, and I don't want someone like using one of my images and making a ton of money without my authorization. That most basic form, but it's much deeper in that. I love and respect and have been part of this DIY community basically my whole life at this stage. And I'm extremely protective of it and supportive of it. And uh I never ever want to feel like I'm exploiting it in any way. So I've always been extremely cautious of like if someone wants to use a photo for something, like, okay, we need to like I always try, I do everything I can to figure it out, make sure it's on the up and up, make sure the band is aware, make sure they're okay with it. Uh what is it gonna be used for, so on and so forth. So, you know, not only the museum itself, and you know, but my take my takeaway here is that like that plays into everything uh that is my photos is use are used for. So like I'll give you an example. Um I licensed uh a photo uh of a musician uh to a big uh skate shoe company. Um when I was approached by that, and uh for that I should say I was approached by uh this the shoe company first, and I was like, well, that's that's bizarre. Um it was like almost like a cold call. They're like, hey, what do you want to use this photo? So the same day I immediately contacted the artist uh and I was like, I was like, oh hey, um I just got a message, and they're like, I told him the person, the art the artist was like, I told them to contact you. So like they're like, of course I I want you to move the image. And uh, you know, it's that kind of and then I I felt I felt really great about it. I was like, okay, well, if you're into it, yeah, and you don't mind your image uh image being out there and used in this context, and everything seems to be fair and on the up and up, uh, I'm okay with this. But those are kind of thought processes that I put into anything that my image is being uh used for. It's no it's no longer about just protecting my image for my own sake, but how is it affecting our community and that person? And people agree with it, are they comfortable with it? So I think those things are really important. I think a lot of times that stuff gets lost on photography.

SPEAKER_03 1:03:32

Yeah. Yeah, it's it's a world I'm kind of uh hoping to get into more so now. And this conversation helped a lot, you know. It helped that helped me kind of see how things uh because I I think I have somewhat of the same mentality, you know, and um and I do want to get into it more. So I really appreciate this conversation, Rob. It was really such a pleasure. Thank you.

SPEAKER_05 1:03:58

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_04 1:03:58

Of course, I truly appreciate your reaching out, and uh I just uh I adore you and your band and all your bandmates, and it was so radically cool to see you all play a couple times.

SPEAKER_03 1:04:14

Yeah, for sure.

SPEAKER_05 1:04:15

It was so great.

SPEAKER_03 1:04:17

Yeah, I'd love to hear your take on Kenya. Like, what was it like being in Africa and seeing punk in a completely different place? Like, I'm sure you've been to Europe and stuff, but what was it like being in Kenya and seeing that kind of thing, you know?

SPEAKER_06 1:04:31

Well, uh the irony is I've never never been to Europe.

SPEAKER_04 1:04:36

Oh, you've never been to Europe?

unknown 1:04:38

No, so Jennifer and I, when we go out of the country, we tend to uh not go to Europe.

SPEAKER_06 1:04:49

Well, here uh we tend to go like you know, we've been to Laos and and Vietnam and Cuba and Indonesia and uh you know just uh a lot of countries. Yeah. But uh Europe someday. When when we're older, yeah. We got our canes and and work our uh you know, not so mobile, and we can be wheeled around in a museum.

unknown 1:05:23

Maybe we'll go to Europe and look at the Louvre or something, but uh we do like our uh travel a little more adventurous.

SPEAKER_03 1:05:31

Uh okay nice.

SPEAKER_06 1:05:33

So uh but you know, we've been to the Middle East, we've been to uh Jordan and Egypt, and then Egypt of course Africa and okay, so to jump back to your question, um Kenya was absolutely incredible. It was a uh it was a really interesting thing for us too because uh, you know, I know I think we discussed this, but it was like it was hit both.

unknown 1:06:00

Of our interests, but in extreme uh differences. So the first eight days and in uh nine days in Kenya was all safari. So we went from uh we were it was just Jennifer and I and our and a guide in our car.

SPEAKER_06 1:06:19

So we went from hours and hours of very silent animal watching.

SPEAKER_04 1:06:24

Beautiful. Oh, you went on the the safaris, the game drives.

SPEAKER_06 1:06:28

Yeah, we were like eight days of game drives, you know, uh, and then suddenly we were thrust back into Nairobi nightlife and like uh loud uh punk music, which we're also obviously uh dedicated and lifelong fans of, but it was this crazy contrast of like you know, yes yesterday I was uh hanging with the zebras, and today I was like getting like blasted uh by saying loud music.

unknown 1:07:01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 1:07:02

Um but it was uh radically cool for me because uh pretty much since I first listened to punk, I mean obviously uh American and US bands were highly influential, the Ted Kennedys, the MDC, you know, Zero Boys and all that.

unknown 1:07:24

But very, very quickly I jumped into uh international punk.

SPEAKER_06 1:07:31

Like like from the video, like uh the little radio station I uh used to listen to in Indiana would play Maximum Rock and Roll Radio. And uh, you know, I would hear and the DJ that would uh spin the punk music on the little radio station also played a lot of international music. So, you know, from the get-go, I was hearing all kinds of like like Italian hardcore, like Raw Power and Decline and Nagazioni, and I started hearing Japanese hardcore uh Gizm and Gauze and Stalin and blah blah blah. But the point is I always look beyond the borders of the United States and was uh fascinated by seeing, not seeing, because I it took a long time for me to see a foreign band, but hearing and reading about all these bands from around the world and knowing that there's this incredible community that is is borderless, if you will. Yes, exactly.

unknown 1:08:39

So so that was really eye-opening for me as a youth. Um so to uh I mean obviously things are a lot different, and it I mean it's different, but it's not. It's still a worldwide community, but everything's at our fingertips now.

SPEAKER_03 1:08:57

So you're like, oh, I want to hear a band from here and just listen to it.

SPEAKER_06 1:09:00

But uh with that said, uh getting the opportunity to go to Kenya and experience live music in Kenya and see bands from Kenya and South Africa obviously um were was uh really mind-blowing to me. Uh I it was the coolest thing, you know, and to have and not only that, but then of course, you know, seeing other music from other countries as well, you know. It was just I I I don't even know if I really even have words for it.

SPEAKER_03 1:09:44

It was just no same, Rob. I'm also just so it was you can't explain it, you just had to be there kind of thing, you know.

SPEAKER_06 1:09:51

Yeah. I I I couldn't believe uh at times I was just like uh was like uh mentally pinching myself, like going, is this really happening? Am I really standing in a club in Nairobi watching you know a black metal band from Kenya uh doing uh voodoo spells on the audience? What is happening?

SPEAKER_05 1:10:19

I can't remember the name of that band. Chovu.

SPEAKER_02 1:10:22

Chovu.

SPEAKER_05 1:10:23

That's it. Oh my god, that was mind-blowing.

SPEAKER_04 1:10:26

It was insane, right? Geez, it was like so mystical and just wow. No, I I got scared as well, dude.

SPEAKER_03 1:10:33

I I got this really cool photo of um of there was just a chick, like a lady, and she had yeah, with like the candle, and she didn't sing or anything, but I just got a photo of her like by the candles, like just sitting there super cool. Yeah, those were nice guys, man. It was such a cool experience. It was my first time also really traveling outside, like within Africa, you know. Like usually South Africans, they always like opt to go to Europe or to New Zealand or Australia, you know, like that's kind of people like we have a joke, you know, we do like when when all the South Africans emigrate, they always we say they're running away, you know. And it's always to like one of those countries, one of those three. And they never really like, even for holidays, they always they never really travel within our continent, you know, and uh even though our continent has problems, there's a lot that it has to offer as well, you know, and getting to see that as a fellow African, getting to go to Lamu, and even being in Nairobi, and like just realizing the similarities and also just the the camaraderie that I got to experience in Africa, you know, it was in in Kenya was just amazing, you know, especially as like a as a as a as a as a punk rock of of color, you know, and getting to meet death and getting to because you know, like that when I was researching on on punk and stuff, like when I was about 19, um I I would search black punk rock bands, you know, because I just wanted to see who else who looked like me was doing this thing, and like um bad brains obviously popped up, and um death as well, you know, and death felt like the more accessible kind of thing. I there was a point where I I I got on the phone, I got I think it was Bad Brains Manager or HR's Manager. I don't know how I got someone's email or number like that. You know, I was like 90 and just full of so much spunk. But then um to think years later that I would get the opportunity to play and meet you know the hackneys and to get to meet death, and it was it was it was super super cool, you know. And I think it it was like it was something that my childhood self would really like to shake my hand for, you know.

SPEAKER_05 1:12:56

Oh hundred percent.

SPEAKER_03 1:12:58

What was it like growing up for you, Rob? Like like were your parents cool with you going out and going to shows and because you're from the Midwest, you know. I I can imagine it's not the most I it wouldn't be as progressive as like the coasts and stuff, you know. It's still kind of close like to I don't know, I don't know what it was like to be honest in America at the time, you know. But I'm curious to find out what what what it was like like as a youth, as a teenager, going to shows and that kind of thing. Like my mom was very she was she just didn't understand it, you know, like she just kind of thought, oh, I'll do it's going up, you know. But until I started hosting shows and being in a band, and she kind of was more open to the idea and the philosophy and the ethos of it all, you know. Like I'd come in with tattoos, and she'd be like, ah and I'd be like, no, mom, it's punk, don't worry about it. So I I'm I'm curious to find out what what your family was like, you know.

SPEAKER_06 1:14:00

Um they weren't particularly receptive to it.

SPEAKER_03 1:14:04

No.

unknown 1:14:05

Um yeah.

SPEAKER_06 1:14:07

Uh because I I started finding punk and well the f the the irony is is like most of my youth I was always kind of uh outside the box, if you will. It was uh kind of like nerdy and g you know, and kind of like just pursuing things that you know, like I was a breakdancer for a while before it found fuck. And I was super into hip hop and um you know, just kinda and it was like trying to find always trying to find uh unique things that maybe that the other kids weren't really listening to or doing.

unknown 1:14:51

And um and then of course I found so I think I think what the reason he's telling you that is my parents were already kind of used to like, okay, here he goes again. Um and so I found found punch.

SPEAKER_06 1:15:04

Um and uh I found that actually uh the the very brief story is uh the the girl that uh I was dating at the time in school uh brought me a uh tape that she had taped off the radio show, and she's like, I just heard the the fun I just taped the funniest radio show last night and I and played me uh institutionalized.

SPEAKER_02 1:15:32

Uh no way.

SPEAKER_06 1:15:34

Uh Suicidal Tendencies and uh Whirled Up My Ass by the Circle Jerks and a bunch of other stuff. But those were the two songs. The first punk song I ever heard was uh Whirled Up My Ass by the Circle Jerks, and then Institutionalized and just a couple other things, and I was like, well, that's these are ridiculous. Um so that's that was kind of how I got into punk and I started listening to that radio show uh because it was once a week.

unknown 1:15:59

This guy, it was you know, and it's a small town in Indiana. But anyway, um then I started kind of you know taking on more of a look and the t-shirts and yeah, you know, what have you, and my parents were really freaked by the whole thing. Um, you know, they didn't really try they couldn't really stop it.

SPEAKER_06 1:16:23

They tried to encourage me not to do weird things with my hair or wearing clothes, but I was at the peak age where you're like, ah, whatever, I'm gonna do a lot of things. Yeah, and um so you know, I even had one time, I'll never forget, we were having like breakfast or dinner or something, we were sitting at the table, and my mom asked me if I was in a cult. Of course, I was when I was a teenager, and I was like, well, yeah, of course I'm in a cult. You know, um and then I remember one time uh you know, I had all kinds of crazy t-shirts and stuff, and I remember one time I had a I had a skinny puppy t-shirt with like a like a like a skeleton on it or something, and she just like came into my room holding the t-shirt. What does this mean? What does this mean? Like, it's a band, it's just their imagery. What's the big deal?

unknown 1:17:19

Like, you know, it was hard for them to process all this kind of weirdness and darkness and heaviness that I was suddenly bringing into the home.

SPEAKER_06 1:17:27

Yeah and their weird club, their weird club was now getting weirder.

SPEAKER_03 1:17:32

And did you have any siblings or anything?

SPEAKER_06 1:17:35

A brother who uh kind of at least early on, he's five years younger, kind of followed in my steps of the punk thing. Cool, and then found his eventually found his own world. But yeah, he was in the actually in a band for a minute, uh playing punk songs and stuff. Um but anyway, and then outside of the home, uh growing up in the Midwest, and this is way before I ever got into punk or anything, I had an extremely difficult uh childhood, and you know, I was picked on a lot and uh beat up and um it just wasn't particularly fun. So I mean I had a good don't get me wrong, I had a great time as a youth. You know, I had my I had my friends and everything, but you know uh it I took a lot of heat for being the odd kid. Um it was a blessing to finally escape that area uh and you know, go to the big city and kind of find my way.

SPEAKER_03 1:18:35

Yeah, it is a blessing.

SPEAKER_06 1:18:38

Yeah, um, so it was a little rough. And then the the funny part is is you know, the years progressed. Uh I was doing the same stuff, listening to the same type of bands, and my hair just got weirder and weirder, and my shirt clips got more insane. And then I think your parents eventually, or at least my parents, um they kind of give up. They're they're like, okay, well, you know, this isn't changing. Um so now we just need to manage this a little better. And it was funny because uh both my parents have have passed on, but um, but with that said, even up until like, you know, uh like a full-grown adult decades now under my belt in punk, I would show up at my mom's house with like a weird haircut or colored hair, and she would like give me the hardest time. I always thought that was really funny. She's like, I really don't like your hair. Well, I don't know why. So I think I think like many parents, they I think they reach a point where they're like, you know what?

SPEAKER_01 1:19:55

Our kid has a food, uh a job, yeah, a roof over his head, food on the table, a steady relationship with the partner.

SPEAKER_06 1:20:04

Uh you know, he's doing okay.

SPEAKER_04 1:20:07

He's doing okay. Who cares what listen what music he listens to? Yeah, you know.

SPEAKER_06 1:20:14

Um and then they're like, okay, we didn't do too bad.

unknown 1:20:17

Yeah. Uh he chose a different path, and that's gonna be okay for us. So um I think that's kind of where they where they landed with that.

SPEAKER_03 1:20:24

That's beautiful. It's really good to hear, man. Sweet. Rob, thank you so much again. Hey, this is this was really nice, a really nice chat.

SPEAKER_06 1:20:35

Oh, 100%. I really enjoyed uh talking uh with you, and please uh send me some of that stuff you were discussing.

SPEAKER_03 1:20:43

I will see I just sent you the um the the photo series on your WhatsApp right now. I just sent you a link.

SPEAKER_06 1:20:51

Oh, fantastic. Yeah. Um I I I'll definitely check that out later. Uh start work in about I got about 30 minutes for start work.

SPEAKER_04 1:21:02

Okay, what do you do, Rob? What's your job?

SPEAKER_06 1:21:06

I actually work for an advertising company in their finance department.

SPEAKER_04 1:21:10

Oh, cool, nice.

SPEAKER_06 1:21:11

And yeah, it's funny because I uh I don't want to say I'm secretive. I mean, I've been at this job for a couple years, and honestly, uh for full reveal, I actually work remotely.

unknown 1:21:24

So I see, okay.

SPEAKER_06 1:21:26

Yeah, so I've actually met very few people in real life that I work with. Uh but prior to this, I've only been at this job for a few years.

unknown 1:21:36

You know, I I've worked in offices and what have you.

SPEAKER_03 1:21:40

And uh my point is I it's not like a big secret, but I've always kept my personal life very uh very distant from my work life. Yeah, it's important. I've made that mistake many times, like especially with the bad stuff, especially when we got bigger, you know. And I've lost a couple jobs because of it, you know. People just don't see things the same way you do, and it's you become somewhat of a threat. I don't know. I don't know, it just it just never ends well. Like it even got to a point where um I was working at this engineering firm, and I didn't even tell anyone I was in a band, you know, like nobody knew. I and no one knew me at this job, but somehow, somehow they found out and I couldn't believe it. And it just it just didn't work out, you know.

SPEAKER_05 1:22:37

What a bow, what a bond.

SPEAKER_03 1:22:40

Uh that's okay. It's alright.

SPEAKER_06 1:22:42

Yeah. But it's funny for me because I don't I mean, obviously I'll wear like, well, now I work remote, but previously I'd wear a weird fan shirt or have like a I would put flyers up at my in my cubicle or whatever.

SPEAKER_02 1:23:01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 1:23:01

But no one really would ever ask. And then it was funny because I would come into work and I would have had like the most insane weekend. Uh, you know, obviously I'm gonna use this as my example of um uh like it's not like it happens every time, but like let's just use the um mayhem show with the Kaya. Um, like something insane like that would happen. And then I'd come in and somebody'd be like, Well, how was your weekend? You're like, Oh, it was fun. I, you know, it was nice out and I enjoyed the weather, but I would never think how do you well, I was at this show and this guy, these guys, the band pulled out a like a skinless cow. They'd be like, Okay, that's enough.

SPEAKER_02 1:23:43

I don't need to hear anymore.

unknown 1:23:44

Thank you with me.

SPEAKER_06 1:23:46

Um, so I've because of those types of things, I've always just kind of like uh my person my persona is persona light, uh if you will. It sounds like you, on the other hand, have had it's had actual detrimental impact, but I feel like I'm very lucky that you know, in my realm at least, I've never had any position job. Because you know, eventually people start to figure out obviously social media is very easy to look at.

unknown 1:24:17

They can just look at my name or whatever. Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 1:24:20

Um, but I've never had any real negative impact.

SPEAKER_03 1:24:26

I think it's different because you work in advertising, and I feel like is it corporate advertising or is it like like is it is but it's um it's I feel like it's definitely a lot more of a creative kind of company of values, you know. It's it's corporate advertising, but it's it's two things.

unknown 1:24:46

One, it's full of creatives, and they're people are like always trying to push the edge of creativity, yeah. And I live in the Bay Area, exactly so everyone's like there's always there's always this kind of aura of the Bay Area that people are almost expecting the oddity.

SPEAKER_02 1:25:06

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:25:08

So I don't know no one's gonna be like, oh my god, we we have a punk rocker in our midst here, like that's not happening. Yeah, like in like South Africans like to always say they're super progressive and super open and that kind of thing, but the reality is they're not, you know, you'll still get ostracized for like for your interests and for looking different, you know, and it trickles over into the workplace as well, you know. But it's okay, Rob. You know, like I'll be fine. I'll be okay. It hasn't been that bad.

SPEAKER_06 1:25:44

Yeah, before you know it, your band is going to be joined the world non-stop, and you're not even gonna have time for work.

SPEAKER_03 1:25:50

So that's the hope, right? Yeah, we'll see what happens.

SPEAKER_06 1:25:54

Yeah. Well, thank you so much for the call and taking time. And you know, it's honestly it's nice just to chat with you because I feel like I I felt like uh, you know, I wanted to get to know you more uh at the gigs, but it's a gig and it's so hard to connect with people at gigs because you're doing your thing, you've got your band, you're selling merch, like you're doing whatever, I'm photographing or doing this or watching this band. And then let's say you know the evening is over and you didn't really have a chance to talk to the people you wanted to talk to.

SPEAKER_03 1:26:27

So thank you, Rob. I appreciate it too. I've I'm also glad we got to speak now, you know, because we didn't get to in Kenya. So this is making it. All right.

SPEAKER_06 1:26:37

Well, I hope you make it to the uh US in the next year or so. Thank you. And uh I assure you uh if you make it to the West Coast, I'll do everything to help you guys out.

SPEAKER_03 1:26:48

Thank you. Thank you. Thank and also thank you for the support you gave us for our crowdfunding. We're we're nearly there with our with our visas. Like it we're literally nearly there. So it went a long way. Thank you.

SPEAKER_06 1:27:01

Of course, of course. It's the least we could do. So um good luck to you.

SPEAKER_03 1:27:06

Thank you, Rob.

unknown 1:27:07

I hope your upcoming tour, you said in June?

SPEAKER_03 1:27:09

In June, yeah.

unknown 1:27:11

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 1:27:12

I can't wait for some scene reports from your tour, so I'll keep an eye on your account.

SPEAKER_04 1:27:16

Sick. Thanks, Rob. Enjoy your day, yeah.

SPEAKER_06 1:27:19

All right, you two ha take care and uh and uh let me know when this uh when this is a button.